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ASU popularity and efficiency (2016. 10. 11-18.)

Discussion in 'Meta-Game Discussion' started by Avenar, Oct 18, 2016.

  1. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    It also provides massive cd reduction for you to use it continuously for ganking, even twice in a fight.

    Yes, one good ulti is enough for a fight, but massive cd reduction allows you to use it for a second time.
    Yes, but then what can he contribute post laning phase? He can spread STD with his Skin but that playstyle is too passive. If buying utility items, many other heroes can farm items faster than Viper while is still relevant later on (like Razor, duh). Nethertoxin is too weak for a steroid, kicking in way too late and not efficient.
     
  2. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    At the time you get it in realistic scenario, most probably you will already have 40 sec CD (18 level). Considering how high is manacost for Lion's ultimate, i think it will rather be limited by his manapool and its recovery, not CD (and his 2 other spells also quite expensive). And although he has manadrain, draining 1.5-2k mana in endgame isnt as easy as you may think, and especially in fight.
     
  3. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    It has 4s cooldown at final level which isn't something to be scoffed at. Even by chipping a little bit you already takes like 100-200 mana which can somewhat ease your consumption a bit.

    Good Lion is going to buy Arcane anyway, which can also be improved into Aether Lens.
     
  4. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @HHHNNNGGG, @MortalKombat3:
    Plenty of times I'm getting ASU on Lion - and it's great.

    Mana is not an issue - despite me not getting Arcane Boots nor Lens, just the Scepter which provides 300 mana.
    Having the level 20 talent for +2 targets is giving you the ability to refill 1,000 mana from two (and they will be two when Lion hit level 20) or easily refill the same from 3 enemy heroes which are running away - remember it sucks 120 mana per second but with it on small chunks and with a leash range of 1,200 units it's always going to refill quite a lot.
    With the now added slow the ability is even more viable.

    The key to successful sustain Lion's mana is to use your skills and re-position the hero, never actually hitting anything in a team-fight. Casting all of his 3 spells (mana drain is not a concern with it's 10 mana cost) require at maximum 1,010 mana.
    With his capacity naturally be 900 at that point it looks like a burden, but having a small boost of 100 mana is enough for a full combo and being able to leach 120 mana per second is going to fill you very fast.

    My usual plan in a skirmish (or a fight) is to enter with Hex, then Drain the target for a little bit even one second is enough, re-position and try to hit two-man impale if possible (if not just drain until duration of hex is over and chain-stun with Impale) followed by Finger to finish off the target or severely damage another one.
    Then get back a little and wait for next drain/impale targets while keeping a safe distance.

    ASU provides few things which Lion really lacks.
    1) Farming mechanism, with his ultimate being on 20 seconds cooldown he can use it to farm and have it ready for a fight;
    2) Be relevant damage wise in the late-game.
    He is feared by the enemies for his disables, but his ultimate previously (without the talent and Scepter) efficiency was on the clock, the moment enemies get past 3,000 health or having high resistance it was just tickling them.
    Now with increased damage, AoE and low cooldown it's impactful even in the late-game.
     
  5. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    I think that Arcane is a decent choice whether you go for support build or aggressive build. Extra mana allows you to keep Mana Drain for later while you max out both stun and Hex. I used to dislike this, but with the relevance of Lens it is more viable actually. +250 cast range is decent for Hex, which has quite low cast range.

    I don't think that you would be using Agha ulti for farming (Lion is already great without farming), though it is a good addition if you have to deal with super or mega creeps.
     
  6. Equivocal

    Equivocal Member

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    Underlord aghanim is criminally underrated
     
  7. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @HHHNNNGGG:
    Farming big waves is also easily doable after Scepter, while otherwise Lion will struggle to clear them.
    But yes, holding against super/mega creep is possible unlike without Scepter, where your only option is to lure them to the fountain.

    About Arcane and Lens. It's about personal choice.
    I really like the tempo (timing) which Tranquil provides, also they help the sustain well and early.
    The superior movement speed is also alluring for me. Next items also comes in faster pace in comparison to waiting to complete the Arcane and building them afterwards. Even minute or two is big of a deal for me.

    Lens while really nice and dandy is actually giving you only range, no utility at all. Prefer to build Dagger if I need the range that much or more utility based items such as Eul/Glimmer or Force Staff, which also give stats (outside of glimmer - mana as well).
     
  8. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    I used to think like you as well, but then when actually using it it becomes quite good. Lion tends to gank with team so Arcane's mana is a great addition. Having 250 manapool also allows me a breather for a full combo without stopping a bit just to drain a tiny bit of mana - which also allows you to use the +60 attack damage talent to the fullest.

    Lens is an optional upgrade if you have spare gold, but then it is still good. It gives 450 manapool which is darn great. Hex has low cast range, so having 250 more cast range (+50%) it means that you don't have to risk yourself much. You also don't have to go for it right after Arcane (which defeats the purpose of Arcane). After Arcane your team ganking will be a lot easier, thus earning more gold and getting Blink faster.

    Having Arcane also means you only need one point in Mana Drain or even completely ignore it after maxing Impale and Hex so that your ganking power is greatly enhanced. Especially when the cooldown of ulti is 1000 years at level 1, having Impale and Hex maxed means you will be more dynamic in gank. A Lion with 15s cooldown Hex is a lot more dangerous than one with 30s cooldown.
     
    kamukag3e likes this.
  9. vvjacobo

    vvjacobo Member

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    Agree, with a right line up of course. For example yesterday game. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3731181527
    +400 damage in the last push :D, And I had to deal with a tri lane and noob jungler wraith king.
     
  10. Equivocal

    Equivocal Member

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    I still haven't found a bad lineup for Underlord aghs which doesn't suck ass by default like 5 cores with no disables.
    Troll is obviously good with it, but not necessary.