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Dark Willow in CM

Discussion in 'Dota Chat' started by IHateLeavers, Mar 2, 2018.

  1. Xmarksthegank

    Xmarksthegank Member

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    So why do we have Silver Edge when you can always pick Viper? Having more options to deal with something is better than less. That makes you think of the trade-offs between each alternative and then force you to make a decision on which approach would be the most effective one.

    Why do we have MKB and Bloodthorn to go through evasion? We could always pick Ember Spirit with True Strike talent or simply use heroes who don't care about evasion at all.

    There's a reason why Slark was the only hero with the same tool at his disposal. And he pays a hefty price for it, despite the skill being on a much-higher cooldown, making the idea of trading other high-cooldown skills like song for it much more reasonable than in the case of willow.

    Simply having the skill grant something like 100% physical damage resistance + 50% magical damage resistance + spell reflect would still make it one of the best defensive tools out there, while also allowing for more interesting counterplay opportunities.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
  2. BloodRampage-

    BloodRampage- Member

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    slark 'paying a heavy price for his ult' has got to down as the most retarded statements ive ever seen.... shadow dance is one of the most infuriatingly broken mechanics/skills there is - it'd make sense if it only had the active portion and not that silly passive, but thats not the case

    heck, slark is easily a good reason to plain quit this game... theres nothing else that utterly DESTROYS you and demoralises you from the inside as a spellcaster hero than watching a hero you nuked down to 1% hp go almost instantly back to 100% just because he managed to leap behind a few trees for no actual risk/cost at all
     
  3. Xmarksthegank

    Xmarksthegank Member

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    I would agree on Slark not being fun to play against. I do not like his design either, because untargetability lacks the multiple avenues of counterplay which other abilities have.

    However, it's not like Slark grants you automatic wins. Playing an agressive lane against the hero is very effective, his early laning is very punishable. At higher levels he loses a lot of his effectiviness, because disciplined play makes it more difficult to run around the map with a shadowblade and get kills. The hero has low stats, is melee, and is supposed to be in a carry position, meaning you can justify spending more resources in countering him. Not so much for Willow.
     
  4. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    He wasnt as bonkers as players usually think.
    And after several nerfs, he was reduced to almost trash-tier state (just like Bloodseeker, Venomancer, Leshrac and other "destined to be trash") heroes. Good balacing job, Valve.
     
  5. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Then why was he nerfed until he was 'garbage'? Are you really disputing how broken MK was?
    I guess Valve will soon make the same mistake with Dark Willow.

    (Considering Veno to be 'destined to be trash' is also very laughable, he's always been either middle of the pack or top tier- when was he ever considered to be 'trash'?).
     
  6. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    And AA is the only hero with anti-heal mechanics. Omniknight is the only hero with mass physical immunity. Treant is the only hero, that can heal towers. So all unique abilities should be deleted, just because "no one else has them"?

    Now about Slark. Unlike DW, Slark CAN attack during Shadow Dance. Now just once, but continually. He also has crazy HP regen and movespeed during it (or anytime he hides), has self-dispel with low CD and movement skill with disable. Now even counting agi gain with every hit. You cant even compare Shadow Realm (mere untargetability) to Slark's escape mechanics, that includes not just untargetablity, but also delayed self-dispel, movement skill and haste/regen during hide.

    MK wasnt "broken" when he made it in CM, except maybe Wukong's Command interaction with Basher. But he received too much nerfs since then, not just removal of Basher+Wukong Command combo.

    Since he lost XP talent at 10 level.
    He can be strong on lane, VS some heroes, but later, his impact on the game will be too weak for mid hero. And if enemies pick something like DK or Timber, they will shit on veno even on laning stage.
     
  7. IHateLeavers

    IHateLeavers Member

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    The biggest problem is imo her aoe root and fear. It really limit amount of places where you want to take a fight against DW team, because if you dont have a dagger or blink on your own hero, it pretty much gonna separete you from the rest of your team. On top of that, If you get a Veil, she will have enough dps to kill heroes who have a lot more networth than she have, kinda like Sky but with better CC and escape mechanism on top of it.

    Due to +200 attack speed talent, she can also be build as semi-right click dps, so even if enemies will have bkb, DW wont become useless.
     
  8. hitsuji

    hitsuji Member

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    Bkb
    also watch eg vs liquid game2
     
  9. Leadblast

    Leadblast Member

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    I don't care if Slark escapes better, or if Veno falls out late game or not. DW is stupidly broken, and it has nothing to do with that. She is a retarded package of insane area cc + 1 escape ability + less BAT than Alchemist in Rage. perhaps none of these things is retarded by itself, but the combination thereof definitely is.

    and damned be the idiot who doesn't notice it and puts his eyes on minutiae.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
  10. IHateLeavers

    IHateLeavers Member

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    The biggest problem is imo her aoe root and fear. It really limit amount of places where you want to take a fight against DW team, because if you dont have a dagger or blink on your own hero, it pretty much gonna separete you from the rest of your team. On top of that, If you get a Veil, she will have enough dps to kill heroes who have a lot more networth than she have, kinda like Sky but with better CC and escape mechanism on top of it.
     
  11. Xmarksthegank

    Xmarksthegank Member

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    Vessel largely replicates the primary utility of AA. It's still not as excellent as AA against, say, Huskar, because Life Break dispels it, but there are plenty of other ways to also address Huskar and Vessel can simply be a part of the solution. Omniknight received numerous nerfs and is still a top pick for a reason, I think IF went a bit overboard with the whole idea of making dispel as scarce it currently is - but there are still quite a few alternatives to deal with GA / Repel. Treant is not the only hero who can heal towers, and counterplays do still exist, they're just at a macro level.

    It's not about homogenizing everything and making everything not unique. It's about giving enough alternatives to deal with threats. There are items and abilities which go through the BKB, and you have items which make it easier to also address the BKB threat defensively. There are only few offensive abilities which address untargetable enemies, and they are all tied to heroes.

    He has all that but nothing in the early lane. That's the reason why he's being ignored in games with money in the line, though that also has to do with the current carry pool, with few heroes dominating the "viability list" with stupidly high winrates.

    The whole schtick for Slark is to use Dark Pact into Shadow Dance and Dark Pact right after Shadow Dance ends. The best way to address Slark apart from aggressively laning him into submission is to have AoE control spells which can be used to control Slark during the Shadow Dance - very similar to willow. The only difference is that AoE skills can be used to damage willow enough, but there are only few abilities which could bring in enough damage to do that, which is also one of the reasons why Juggernaut matches up rather well against her.

    It should be mentioned that I don't like Slark's design, either but at least he's not a good hero overall while doing so. I would be all for redesigning slark with something that's still fun to play and play against. For now though, at least with Slark being a carry, I can also justify spending more resources to counter the hero. Willow can be relevant with very minimal items. Slark, not so much.

    If Shadow Realm was 100% physical damage resistance + 50% magic resistance + Spell Reflect, it would give more opportunities to interact with Willow. It also would make Willow less weak against Blade Mail, allow her to use Euls on her own, as well as Force Staff, but on the other hand, also allow many more heroes to do something about Shadow Realm.
     
  12. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Vessel can be dispelled, doesnt pierce BKB, has limited charges and has no AoE.
    As for healing towers - as far as i know, Lich can do it too at 25 level, but alas, at the time Lich gets 25 level, this ability wont be needed in 90+% of cases.
    I still dont understand, why do you consider DW so good. Just because she can have impact without items? But that's the definition of support hero - to have impact on game even without items (or with minimal items). I think, that heroes like Disruptor, Earth Spirit or Chen can have no less impact on the game, than DW.
     
  13. Xmarksthegank

    Xmarksthegank Member

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    Vessel still offers an alternative, especially if combined with stuns. It's another way to deal with heroes who can regenerate or heal very quickly.

    DW is a good hero, she has bunch of disables, and potential for massvie damage which is far from impossible to realize. Most other 5's who do not need items mostly offer utility, not the great quantities of damage, and they certainly tend to lack strong defensive skills.

    I would be far more okay with the hero IF there were more interesting counterplays to her than "pop blademail". Shadow Realm is the main offender and changing its mechanics seem like the obvious solution.
     
  14. IHateLeavers

    IHateLeavers Member

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    Well she got nerfed in this patch, but it's still not enough i think. Her mp cost are still low enough that you can often get away without buying arcane.
     
  15. DasKobold

    DasKobold Member

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    I think they should change her shadow realm. For starters she should take the damage herself if she fails to attack an enemy, just like how Alchemist stuns himself if he fails to hit an enemy.
     
  16. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Yeah, let's nerf her into oblivion, so she'll be a "noob trap" hero, like BS or Necro after nerfs....