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My 2cents on roles

Discussion in 'Dota Chat' started by Daddy Sven, Sep 14, 2018.

  1. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    I decided to create this thread after checking out: Give Rewards for dewarding to the dewarder...and more gold

    I find it that many players, even after playing Dota for several years, still have difficulty adjusting to the game and how to approach it. Separation of roles, be it carry, initiator, tank, support or whatever often leads to the players themselves shackling the full potential of a hero. In addition leading to many heated arguments over balance, item changes/addition, talents and whatnot. Likewise it tends to lead to absorbing trendy metas and forgoing strategies which could prove more effective.

    This is not judgement on technical skills or even game knowledge, but more on game design. The core goal of Dota is to simply destroy 1 building. With that, many strategies have formed over the years and the majority include separating your roster of heroes by role. That is nice and all, but even in the past, that has lead to issues as one hero can do multiple things and has various strengths and weaknesses depending on gear or xp. As such, a well "balanced" team which on paper has all the necessary components to defeat the enemy, can end up loosing to a 5man carry stack, simply because of poor gold allocation or skill.

    And here's the thing. Skill is something you improve upon while playing the game, however gold is a valuable resource which can make even a bad player seem threatening. As the game evolved a more reasonable separation of priority was created, which is the positions system. Pos 1 being the hero who's allowed to acquire the majority of gold while pos 5 is often dedicated to providing ease of access to gold for allies by protecting them or their gold farming areas.

    With that said.. Forced position 5 with no pennies your pocket is just a standard form of play and not necessarily an ideal one. Truth be told, it's all about gold management. You don't really need a dedicated support often times due to babysit carries not being a thing anymore along with: greater access to gold, cheaper support utility items, backpack, tome of knowledge and powerspike talents.

    Gold priority in a team is something dynamic. After a certain hero obtains necessary core items to be effective, the shift can be made to an ally who is lacking in gold. Set ally may have powerful abilities, talents or has the allure of holding certain items in his inventory. There are thousands of strategies in this game, but playing with rando├ęs limits them greatly.

    To anybody new or struggling to enjoy the game, just give this a try. Find people you can communicate easily with, form different teams and communicate on how to actually win the game. What peak level are you looking for, what items, lane progress, warding priority etc.. You'll find much greater flexibility and control over your preferred "role" and I can guarantee that you'll be experiencing Dota in a completely different way.
     
    kamukag3e likes this.
  2. Skurai

    Skurai Member

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    In dota, 99.9% of games are such that people play for fun. In the past, your team may not even have a courier because 200 gold is expensive and no one wants to spend the gold. It is not fun to lose 200 gold lol. Good that it has been changed to 50 gold.

    There is more sentry dewarding occurring because observer wards give more gold these days. That is an incentive to buy sentry.
    Reality is even support players want gold and want to have fun.

    One reason why there are always more carry players than support players in pubs is because carries have more gold and are more fun to play. Supports need to be more fun to play too.

    As for the role rigidity u mention, hmm thats just how people are it seems. And often it is because they just want to play for their own fun, and for themselves only.

    This makes sense but the problem is people often only care about themselves lol. The carry will want everything sadly
     
  3. MrFrank

    MrFrank Member

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    Tales of the trench.
     
  4. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    Exactly why I recommend finding pals to play with. For me personally, playing solo with people I don't know, just isn't as fun.
     
  5. GoLD-ReaVeR

    GoLD-ReaVeR Member

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    And this is why they lose. For as long as players think that a sheepstick on a stormspirit is a more efficient buy than a blinkdagger on Lion there's very little you can do to get people to change their resource allocation. At the same time, carries that do actually look at what teammates got and what they are doing will often produce a significantly stronger team presence. That means that the team with weaker players can still win just because these players share their gold.
     
  6. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    Really good threat, I enjoy reading it.

    Thought about this for a long time and can give my thoughts a go in here.

    As Sven said - goal is to kill the enemy Ancient, so any strategy which can give you higher chances is a good thing.

    Gold priority was a big thing when the gold was really restricted in previous versions, right now everyone can be nearly equally fed 35-40 minutes into the game despite slight difference of item (support item indeed cost lower and are usually not as efficient for offensive purposes bar dagger, so a support with 4-5,000 new worth can be on par with a carry's 12,000 worth of items without feeling worthless).

    Right now gold can be found everywhere and timings are much more important IMO.
    A good team (read that as organized one and not a public game in solo Q or party which just play for fun), should learn that proper gold management for the team is not just 'open space for cores to farm'.
    Support hitting good timing on a core item is usually more impactful for the next 5-10 minutes then a core getting his 'first farming item' 2 minutes earlier.
    Support getting a single wave of farm is usually more beneficial for the team then a carry getting two in the early and sometimes late-game, because a 250 gold for the carry is 'part of the sum for a part of my aimed item', where for a support equals 2-3 team consumables or a whole item (Wind Lace or Raindrops) etc.

    So proper gold management is and always was a important part of competitive team's coached strategies.
    If you see some pro player hitting the jungle while his support get the last hits from 1 wave - that is not coincidence.

    Core buying a single ward and rotating (another core buying the next one) can really help the support getting his small items in a bad game and not be left for dead to anyone from the enemy team, which have 2-3 small items for the last 10 minutes.

    A lot of people doesn't understand that practically the support should use 'time' to place wards, 'gold' (or basically purchasing the ward) is not 'his' job, it's for the team and mainly to secure location of the map be it offensively or defensively.
     
    Daddy Sven likes this.
  7. Skurai

    Skurai Member

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    Hmmm agreed but majority will not play with pals. Thats just how pubs are. Me included lol. It is just a fun game that people wont put that much effort into.

    Hmmm people are selfish lol. Wat to do.
     
  8. Abdulink

    Abdulink Member

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    I agree. Making roles 'official' is dumb as hell.
     
  9. Blarrg

    Blarrg Member

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    Nothing is forced. People just have expectations. It is obvious which heroes fit which role, people experiment all the time during new patches to see if stuff works. When people get used to the game certain patterns appear to them which allows them to reasonably assign roles to heroes. This hero can work well without items and without many levels, so its position 5. This hero works well with lots of items and levels, so position 1. Its not forced as it is a completely normal progression of human understanding to play something optimally.

    Of course patches come and can change things up, which is why I said people experiment with new things. People aren't going to play mid CM just because she has a 200 attack speed talent. Its been tried, and it just doesn't work as well as you would think.

    If you think position 5 means "you get no gold" then you simply aren't playing the game correctly. I've never had a problem buying needed defensive utility items along with wards and sentries for my team as support. If you do, you're probably wasting time running around instead of farming a camp during stalemates. Nowadays the map has so much gold there shouldn't be situations where you have literally nothing but boots unless you're getting absolutely stomped. In which case, its probably either the drafts fault or your fault for not buying proper vision or your teams fault for not playing the game correctly.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018 at 5:28 AM
    MrFrank likes this.
  10. Skurai

    Skurai Member

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    The "u get no gold" or "u get too little gold" is also a problem.

    Consider giving abit more gold per second for heroes that do not frag creeps?
    Say gain 40 gold if the hero does not frag a single creep for a minute?
    Supports get too little gold. Carries want everything, in general.
     
  11. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Skurai:
    Sorry, I don't see that happening.
    All I see is how bad supports fail to get gold which is out there for them.

    You can see how competitive supports always have decent items and GPM, especially into the middle and late game.

    Just watching my game stats and all I can tell you is that in a game where we're winning I as a support have half the GPM of my overly farmed cores when they have 200 last hits and I have 20 while having 4 or 5 times more kills (like 2 to 10) which I consider normal.
    Then on games where we're being pressured hard, I have less of a difference in GPM (250 to 320) etc.

    And that's completely normal IMO, if the support is out of position he will die more frequently and lose the small gold he has. If he doesn't participate in kills he won't get kill/assist gold so his gold won't be as much as one understanding how positions and rotation matters. Itemization is also important.
    Plenty of times I see players getting very-very bad items which are considered 'good' like Midas into Aghanim's Scepter (or just Scepter) for Treant. Which if you take a look at the impact being made by the build - you will see that it's completely bad. The game was won or lost far before Scepter was completed. Which basically means that rushing 4,000 gold item as a support is useless, when you can have so much more items meanwhile to impact the game with and those doesn't cost as much, nor can be used after a support acquire 4,000 gold.

    Seen plenty of low rated players going for 5 items each one of which cost more then 5,000 gold and complain how he should have higher rating - pointing the game where he had won with such a build, not looking that 5 out of 6 games he have zero impact because of that style of play.

    Supports have the same amount of resources to work with, they just need to use them better.
    Plenty of times 2 supports can easily dominate a single over-farmed carry in the middle game, yet they choose passive supports, get bad item, don't impact the early game and then blame the 'position' thingy as the reason they die constantly.
    I have a lot of games with plenty of deaths - I always blame my bad position when I die. Even if my team were really bad - it's still my positioning which brings me the death - I should have been just sitting 1,000 range behind them and would still survive an engagement while being able to participate in it if required.
     
    MrFrank likes this.