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Spiritbreaker and Doom don't deserve to have high BAT

Discussion in 'Meta-Game Discussion' started by Hyperion1O1, Jun 16, 2017.

  1. Hyperion1O1

    Hyperion1O1 Member

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    Seriously, I could understand Treant because he has retarded early game damage but SB and Doom?

    These guys need some love. SB can't even properly make use of 17% because its goddamn 17% and Bash has a cooldown. Doom has just atrocious BAT and is relegated to a Doombot with auras.

    Give them the baseline 1.7 or even make them 1.6 or something. Its not gonna break the heroes or anything.
     
  2. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    Spirit breaker doesn't need a buff. Doom could use one.
     
  3. invul_nerable

    invul_nerable Member

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    Bara kinda does deserve it. It is the only way of balancing the hero without making him become a cripple(Im looking at you CM). Yes, 17% bash chance is low, but all his other spells is related to bash too, 1st spell makes a guaranteed bash, ult is another guaranteed bash , and second spell increases the damage you do with the bash and allows you to chase em to bash their faces. The increase on BAT is only to ensure that he wont be too overpowered early game and also so that he wont scale that much late game. Also he is the only hero to run across the map to bash faces. He is also durable and item independent to top it off. So yeah, he deserved it. Doom however does not deserve it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  4. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    SB in completely OK (maybe even a bit too strong). First, he has really amazing starting stats (very high damage, HP and armour, decent movespeed considering he also has movespeed aura.
    Like Treant, SB isnt meant to be a carry-rightcliker. He is strong with his all-map presense (with charge), strong stuns, escape and tankiness. That's why his BAT was nerfed. After all, Greater Bash adds high amount of damage and long stun.
    For SB, his BAT shouldnt be changes, as he's already one of the strongest hero, with one of the highest winrates over all brackets.

    As for Doom, i dont know, why he "deserved" 2.0 BAT (the slowest in DoTA). Doom doesnt have as strong utility as SB, his W and R have ridiculously long CDs for what they do, and his starting stats arent amazing either (because 0 armour FU). Doom can farm very quickly with Devour, though, and deals decent damage with Infernal Blade (that is guaranteed to hit, so is good VS tinker/troll/PA). But his awful BAT prevents him from becoming average right-clicker...
    I agree that Doom's BAT should be reverted to 1.7, as most other heroes have. ATM, the only Doom's playstyle is "aura bitch", that farms, soaks damage, uses ulti on enemy core and occasionaly hits with IB....
     
  5. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    Wait, is this true? I always miss when I try to hit troll.
     
  6. Blamagenkind

    Blamagenkind Member

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    Nope, he's wrong.

    E:
    On topic... I'd agree on Doom, his BAT should be something like 1.8.
    Infernal Blade is already restricted by cooldown & although it stacks I don't think 2.0 BAT is necessary.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  7. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    hmm, i should've been really lucky then in my recent Doom game VS troll....
     
  8. IHateLeavers

    IHateLeavers Member

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    Bara is fine and Doom doesnt need better BAT. Doom problem is mostly too high CD's on ulti.
     
  9. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    I'd actually go in a different direction, and buff scorched earth and infernal blade. Knock down the CD on scorched earth a little, make infernal blade more consistent- like silencer's glaives it shouldn't pull creep aggro when you use it, and it should give true strike like Treant's guise hit.

    I'd also experiment with putting break back on the ult. It may be a little too powerful, but with such a long CD I think it might be okay. Then Aghs could give something entirely unique. Something neat would be an "Apocalypse" passive, which drops random meteors around him. This would allow an aoe-dps playstyle that isn't viable now because radiance+scorched earth is actually fairly pathetic compared to what you can get with bristleback, abaddon, ember, etc.
     
  10. IHateLeavers

    IHateLeavers Member

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    The problem is that he already got decent roaming early on against teams who are not in top 3, so if you reduce CD on SE and blade he will become consistent ban due to how meta works in current patch and thus insta nerfed few weeks later.

    Imo the biggest problem is that ulti have longer CD than heroes are dead for which makes it n nearly useless as time goes on, not to mention that people will have linkens / Lotus Orbs by that time as well, so getting good ulti on the target you want will be a lot more difficult.
     
  11. Freaky Alien Genotype

    Freaky Alien Genotype Moderator Staff Member

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    Eh, Spirit Breaker has really good burst damage if he's able to stay even with the other team in levels and Doom's damage is %-based-DoT, so attack speed doesn't benefit it in any way. I think both the heroes are fine as they are in that respect.
     
  12. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    The thing is they're both not great auto-attackers, so the BAT limits their viable build options.

    On SB it's not an issue since he is 56% winrate at all brackets and decent in competitive.

    On Sven it's not an issue either since he is 54% at all brackets and decent in competitive. Also he gets a massive attack steroid that lets him two shot entire teams.

    On Doom it's just kind of silly, especially with the lowest agi gain in the game, pathetic winrate, and very low pick/ban in competitive.
     
  13. Freaky Alien Genotype

    Freaky Alien Genotype Moderator Staff Member

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    I think Doom's problems lie beyond just his high BAT. He's a very greedy hero who requires decent amounts of farm, has no flash farming capacities (there's only so much you can do with Devour and Midas) and his ulti has been nerfed into the ground over the course of successive patches. I think if Doom is to find his niche then I think his ulti needs to be un-fucked at the very least. Perhaps give him some semblance of starting armour and maybe +5 base MS. Perhaps not all of those together but some combination would be a good starting point.
     
  14. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    I am a bara player, and I am 100% sure he is quite OP. the only bad thing is that he lose lane vs PA and Jah'rakal

    Edit: im pretty sure doom was nerfed because of infernal blade
     
  15. invul_nerable

    invul_nerable Member

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    Yeah, the spell that makes you think twice before casting doom because it doesnt pop linkens and requires you to go melee range.
     
  16. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    well its a right click and its the asset he gains in exchange for BAT

    the fact that doom actually bash in this spell completely negate the BAT nerf because it reduce enemy BAT as well... more or less
     
  17. invul_nerable

    invul_nerable Member

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    But the fact that he cant reliably cast doom because it doesn't pop linkens is a very bad because Doom is the reason why he gets all these nerfs.
     
  18. vvjacobo

    vvjacobo Member

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    Doom is a very tricky hero to balance Right now he needs a small buff but any change in neutrals, gold or exp can boost him or ruin his life completly. He is really hard to kill once he buys the plate mail, it's not one of those "yea its little imba, burst him and you can counter him" heroes... His ultimate is very tricky to balance, its a real 4 vs 5 team fight fuckers like legion, only balance is the coldown and the posibility to retreat.

    In my opinion, i'd buff his move speed and see what happens. If still underpowered i'd say increase doom's cast range.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  19. effreit89

    effreit89 Member

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    I think that BAT nerf was when Infernal Blade dealt like ~250 damage on the first level.
    Then Infernal Blade damage on the early levels got crippled and Ice forgot to fix his horrendous BAT.

    I think at this point, if the BAT would stay, better CD on IF is in order (like 8/6.5/5/3.5s), i mean, it's still a worse Wraithfire Blast if you think about it.
    DOOM (if the CD will stay) should have the Break mechanic back.
    And please heavens, give him 300MS! Just adjust the SE MS bonus to compensate.

    and the +1 armor classic buff plox
     
  20. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    Can't we have Infernal Blade into a single-targeting spell, then give it a reasonable manacost + cooldown?

    I'll be appreciated since Linken's is practically bought in almost every game now.

    Devouring a neutral for a single-targeting ability is quite cumbersome.