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Talent - Viper

Discussion in 'Remakes' started by FireCog, Jun 13, 2017.

?

  1. Yes

    1 vote(s)
    14.3%
  2. No

    6 vote(s)
    85.7%
  1. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    Wrong. Armor talent makes sure you don't have to invest in armor items... e.g. more freedom to pick up damage AND utility items. This also includes lifesteal items.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  2. FireCog

    FireCog Member

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    Level 25 is late. Viper is good w/o Level 25 Armor, he dominates the game.
    In short words: Armor items are better (and more interesting) on Viper than lifesteal items. That is why talent must be for lifesteal rather than armor.
    Do you understand my point at least? : O I understand yours. (I hope )) )

    Edit:

    You certainly can get Satanic on Viper, but Satanic on Luna and Satanic on Viper are different things. Same can go for Cuirass in the opposite way.
     
  3. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    I disagree here. As you already pointed out, you need damage in order to make the lifesteal relevant. However by focusing on armor items due to the lack of an armor talent, you loose on damage, which makes the lifesteal pretty weak. With the current talent, you can skip on some armor items. Viper is actually pretty flexible, but people play him quite safe. Mjolnir, Daedalus, Bloodthorn, Armlet, Radiance all work well on Viper. I'd love to include MoM, but the silence really sucks.
     
  4. FireCog

    FireCog Member

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    @Daddy Sven
    That is a valuable assumption that Viper can live to the final level w/o armor items - exactly describes, why Cuirass has 72% winrate and people keep losing despite great lead. ("Oh no, I dominated the lane so hard - but these 4 suckers are uncarryable")
    Average Viper has 500 XPM - multiply if you don't like that value - takes about 50 min to reach the final level.
    (500 or 800 - this is almost description of your domination in game. Too high GPM/XPM values on such hero as Viper that cannot flash farm are usually about no real competition in game, not very good statistics material.)
    For example Dendi has 550 XPM.
    Now, if you can go with your assumption to me and say, how is it to live without armor to 50 min, what can I say to you? Imagine, I am some type of sensei that knows Dota very well, what would I say?
    Then I say it, and you start understanding the problem I am talking about.
    "If 20 Armor is so good, why do I not rush Cuirass, that is 15 Armor but also reduces enemy armor and not only of units but also structures so I can push, and all my team can deal more damage - let's do it!"
    Okay then.
    Level 25 talent is a sweet candy, not panacea.
    Now, as for lifesteal, it will synergy with damage and armor items because all of them have offensive abilities.
    That is what differs Viper's armor from Dragon Knight's. One gets armor for (/along with) offense, the other for tankiness.
     
  5. invul_nerable

    invul_nerable Member

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    More armor against carries is never bad(+20 armor and cuirrass), especially with his reputation of being an anti-carry.

    I get your point, with lifesteal you can opt for armor items and damage items as oppose to +20 armor talent making buy more damage items or even lifesteal for that matter, but that is the case! You dont always have to or want to have lifesteal. More than times than not, if I want survivability items for Viper, I would go tarrasque over Satanic, or Cuirras over Satanic, or even Butterfly over Satanic. Why? Because Viper doesnt have any big bursts physical like PA and or Jugg or Trax. In order to have Viper do big bursts of damage, he needs to hit the target a lot of times(so that his 2nd will kick in) now, if its a carry vs viper, if the enemy heroes HP is higher, you got a low chance winning against them because physical damage burst you down immediately(No armor but have 60-80% lifesteal) more so if enemy carries HP is high. Lifesteal is generally and usually used by squishy carries that can do big burst damage, and viper is not squishy or even does burst damage with his physical damage.

    Im going to give you an example, Trax is a ranged carry that excel most at mid game, both are almost similar to each other, does a lot of slows, and walks very slowly as well, but why does Trax cam get away with lifesteal better than Viper? First off, Trax has low HP but has high attackspeed(Ult) and Trax does high burst damage (Ult and 3rd spell). But take note: Trax doesnt always have to have lifesteal. Only if the situation demands it. I have won a lot of games without lifesteal for Trax because the enemy just cant get near me.

    Now looking at Viper. Has innate survivability spell(3rd skill) which means he is tankier, Viper has burst but it is more in a form of magical damage(Poision from 1st 3rd and ult) so you wont leech life from it, and his 2nd spell only grants him 192 damage if enemy HP is 20%, so most likely enemy is already dead before you could get a good lifesteal out of your 192 damage, making you target another hero whose health is potentially full which also means you lose all the damage you have earlier and have piss poor lifesteal again. Of course, 60-80% Lifesteal is not piss poor, but the fact that you dont really need lifesteal is the reason why lifesteal is bad and why +20 armor is good.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
  6. FireCog

    FireCog Member

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    @invul_nerable
    You are all thinking what is good practically. That is not very good. We must think about concepts and then IceFrog & Co will put them into life. (If they are good (Or bad haha))
    20 Armor is technically better but conceptually not cool.
    As you say, lifesteal is not a very good item option, that's why such thing only gets more interesting as a talent.
    As a hero usually unable to deal too much damage, lifesteal value can be higher than usual. That's what makes up the talent as 40(50/60)% Lifesteal.
    And then it's not very good and we can seek for another option. It is no longer situation that everyone picks this talent. And we have overall improvement. :rolleyes:

    Edit:

    Guys, tell me, I have changed something with discussion! This is like.. I am talking to myself all time. :(
     
  7. invul_nerable

    invul_nerable Member

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    Actually, we can consider that option, you just chose the wrong talent to replace. I would love to see lvl 20 ranged talent to be replaced by lifesteal(15% lifesteal). Its underwhelming. I would go for Poison attack affecting buildings all day every day.
     
  8. ZizZizZiz1

    ZizZizZiz1 Member

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    Idea:

    Change lvl25 talents from

    +80 viperstrike dps OR +20 armor

    to

    +40 nethertoxin base damage OR +5s viperstrike duration
     
  9. Monsterlord_2nd

    Monsterlord_2nd Moderator Staff Member

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    If you're taking the game that late with Viper as your main carry, you're doing something wrong. His skillset, steroid and talents are very midgame-focused; you shouldn't be going past 40 minutes unless you have someone stronger on your side.
     
  10. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    Thing is, picking up a lifesteal talent at lv25 won't improve carrying either.

    What you just wrote made 0 sense, because you still have to pick up that talent, way at lv25. More damage = more lifesteal. So unless you focus on damage and attack speed items, that lifesteal becomes weak.

    Here's a good game example where Viper doesn't have any armor focused items pre-25.


    With that build and without the talent he has 51.9 physical resistance. With the talent, that boosts to 69.5. More than a significant boost.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017