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Underlord ASU

Discussion in 'Meta-Game Discussion' started by Equivocal, Jan 7, 2018.

  1. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    I tested and the stack duration doesn't increase.
     
  2. Equivocal

    Equivocal Member

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    Do tell me how you tested it, works on my machine.

    20180109194502_1.jpg
     
    Devius likes this.
  3. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    I guess the tool tip is wrong in the game. Thanks.
     
  4. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Illusions scale only with "base damage" (white number), and aura provides "added damage" (green number), that doesnt affect illusions. If you got a divine rapier, for example, your hero's illusions wont deal any extra damage, only hero himself will.

    So, it's wrong tooltip? Good to know...

    It depends on your team's setup, and how teamfight went. Only heroes, that died near Underlord count, and Underlord himself must survive.
    When i watch competive games, a teamfight lost at 30+ min usually means enemy loses a lane or even two, cause teams have decent pushing power anyways. They dont need underlord's ASU for that, their carry/mid heroes usually do that job anyway. If enemies dont have BB, of course.
    I'll say it again - it's a nice situational item, just like Dagon on Bloodseeker or ASU on Luna, but nothing more, and far from core.
     
    Marquis de Gibus likes this.
  5. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    The ASU is pretty good if, say, you have some hero that can instantly delete another hero from game (like CK or PA). Even at one hero kill it is already a big value for your teammates (30 damage with Talent) and a creepwave is somewhat 10-15 damage.

    This item is still a snowball item that allows you, when having an upperhand, to steamroll through the game. If you are behind, I'm not so sure about its effectiveness.

    About Mek vs. Guard, it is quite an unbalanced comparison. Mek is 2350 while CG is 3550. Mek can be upgraded while CG is a dead item. CG has good synergy with Atrophy Aura (damage block stacks better with attack damage reduction) while Mek's HP heal helps a lot versus physical and magical damage. The ability to be built into Greaves at late game is also a big factor. Manacost shouldn't be a problem as this guy will be building Arcane and situationally Soul Ring for his consumption, or even Urn into Spirit Vessel that is also very powerful. He also has big Int gain to supply his mana.

    I'd rather say Buckler is a mini-Mek while CG is a mini-Greaves.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  6. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    I've also been thinking about going Helm of the Dominator instead of an early mek. It helps out with pushes, gives nice HP regen, and attack speed boost.

    If you dominate a catapult you can slow-seige with Pit and Firestorm. Also you can split push with a creep and then ult your team in to finish off a tower.
     
  7. Equivocal

    Equivocal Member

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    yeah valve just can't really update them properly sometimes


    Okay I admit that you probably wont want to make aghanim when your team consists of Warlock, Timbersaw and Phoenix. But it is such an amazing team damage boost for every hero which has even a chance to right click something once.
    Around 20 min Underlord with a mek is relatively hard to take down as long as he has his team to back him up.

    20 min is a completely different matter though. It is a fairly expected timing for UL agh to come online, as he has both his Atrophy Aura talent and Mek at ready. Taking raxes around 24 min is a crippling defeat especially when Underlord's team gets even more powerful every minute.

    I am 100% sure aghs is The core item for undelord. With just UL + 2 starving supports after a crushing teamfight they alone can take t2 + raxes thanks to UL sitting comfortably with +400 damage, which translates to +800 damage if you consider two extra heroes. The damage boost is insane, utterly unheard of.


    I honestly prefer mek over CG. Not only because of the points you pointed out, but it the ability to turn around fights with a burst heal just makes the Aghanim build really damn reliable.

    Why slow siege when you can end the game @25 min?
     
  8. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Hmm, but of course, when many thouthands bucks are on stake, or even millions (and the title of TI winner), they still never buy ASU on Underlord?
    Why?
     
  9. Equivocal

    Equivocal Member

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    It took months for pros to not build vanguard for ember spirit in every single game when he was first released. If you think e-sports events are item build pioneer conventions you are extremely wrong.
     
  10. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Equivocal, @MortalKombat3:
    Despite me being against Scepter on Underlord as a core item (I like it classified like a situational).
    Using competitive matches/players as an argument is bad.

    Professional players does not risk or use not-tested builds in their matches. And if they are forced to play a specific hero (based on his overall performance against said already picked hero) out of their routine usually do the cookie-cutter build with it.

    Only pocket strategies and previously prepared unorthodox and heavily trained ones can differ from the normal builds.
     
  11. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    People had been using Aghanim on Void like years before it was even a thing in pro scene.

    With million dollars at stake would you want to try some cheesy strat that was not tested a lot before actual things?
     
  12. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    When he was OP as fuck, you mean? You could build any item on him and still win. BTW, VG is OK choice for old Ember, considering he hadnt serious mana problems, and extra early tankines coupled with his skill, could make him dominate midgame.

    Sure, but when Mirana's ASU was released, it instantly became core item for her, including competive. Same for reworked MoM or HoD - they quickly entered into competive meta Why? Because everyone understood that it's really powerful item picks!
    Pros quickly realize really powerful items/builds, believe me. But of course, they wont risk using situational, risky and timing-based item, that is powerful ONLY if used damn all right, such as Underlord's ASU.
     
    kamukag3e likes this.
  13. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @MortalKombat3:
    Well, all professional players still play public games and have some experience from there which they can apply (or at least partially) in their competitive matches.

    If something is so powerful that it's obviously broken - they can easily use it in their games.
    But most of the stuff (even those which are considered overpowering in public matches) are situational and can be easily shut ed down by a group effort - which competitive matches are based around.

    Some of the 'cancer' heroes are not even a nuisance in a competitive match because it will be countered right from the start or when he is at it's weakest point etc.

    So no more 'general talk', ASU is not used on competitive because it's not as powerful as Equivocal try to describe it at least in their games, but:
    1) that's not an issue if it's strong in a public environment;
    2) that's not a good argument, because it doesn't represent the whole picture.
     
  14. Equivocal

    Equivocal Member

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    Yes he was OP, but not with Drums VG and maxing flame guard back then. It took way too long for physical ember to become the standard before it was nerfed to the ground.

    Because Mirana is in the op 10 most popular heroes of all time with an extremely versatile playstyle and forgiving item building. Comparing MoM and HoD to Underlord aghanim is very unfair though as you can build those items on literally any hero, while Underlord aghanim upgrade is exclusive to Underlord himself.

    I have never seen underlord Aghanim built in a relevant pro game. Until someone goes for Aghs (preferably right after Arcanes+Mek) we have nothing to discuss about pro players.

    The only time I have seen UL aghs not being "win a game by itself" was in a meme inhouse game where my team mate went for radiance first and I think he also made also something else but I can't recall. Anyway our team had Phoenix and Timbersaw, Underlord was practically our only hero who could even use right clicks.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  15. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    He was OP even with those items. His skills were just too strong. He didnt even needed to focus on physical damage items in midgame to dominate it. Being a bit tankier felt better. And later, you could build damage items on him and dominate in lategame as well.

    She wasnt popular right before her ASU was released. Actually, her popularity was droping down over time (even ability to oneshot creeps with arrow didnt helped), and i think they added ASU as an another attempt to make her feel "better" pick.

    As i already said, in REAL game, where both teams are approximately equal, Underlord's ASU isnt even nearly as strong as Mirana's ASU, for example. It's situational, and can be useful with right pick/execution, but if you fail with it, you end up with 4.2k item, that gives a mediocre boost to HP/mana, and nothing more.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
  16. Equivocal

    Equivocal Member

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    GK is rolling in his grave rn


    Mirana has always been one of the most popular heroes, regardless of her actual powerlevel. Same thing with pudge and Invoker to some extent. There are thousands of Mirana players eager to make their favorite hero viable with a new build every time a patch kicks in.

    Please tell me what a REAL game is, because in a very even games, and even those where Underlord's team was losing really hard, aghanim had a huge impact in the game. When I look at the team total networth and XP graphs, it takes a huge swing to the Underlord's team every time he purchases the item, with a 2-3 min delay naturally as you don't usually get the item delivered mid fight. A damage aura of 200 for my whole team is well worth 4,2k gold.
     
  17. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    I think LC is more broken
     
  18. Devius

    Devius Member

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    "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

    - Bruce Lee.

    To win games, pro players apply strategies they are comfortable with. Most teams have a "pool" of heroes that they can use to play in their style most effectively. If a hero, e.g. meepo, does not fit into the team's current playstyle, traiting and brainstorming from the entire team are required to polish the strategy. Even if a player practices that hero a lot, it's not enough.
    The same goes for items. If an item requires the team to change their playstyle, long time will pass before it's used on the pro scene. It doesn't matter if you can create opportunities if your team doesn't know how to look for them.

    Agh's on underlord requires two things to be successful: 1. Be close to many dying creeps. 2. Be close to your carry to make use that. So ideally, Underlord follows a farming carry for a minute or two after aghs, or before going after an objective.

    That isn't even close to a normal Underlord playstyle! If you do that in a pub game, your carry will freak out and do stupid things, your teammates are likely to kill creepls when you're away (that's what they normally do) and reduce your stacks before the fight, etc etc. Even if pro games, players will just nuke creeps like they always when a carry nearby with MoM is wounded, do you think they'll wait for Underlord to come?
     
  19. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Exactly that!
    And you know, last time i played as Underlord, i did exactly as you say. My team made a mistake, trying to contest Rosh while i was dead. They were wiped, and we left against megacreeps. With carry Chaos Knight (who isnt particulary strong VS megas). Enemies tried to finish us, but wave after wave, we managed to defend for a long, and at the end, we wiped them and won.
    I got ASU is that game, and it made wonders there. But it was situational purchase, no more and no less.
     
  20. Devius

    Devius Member

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    Finally we see Underlord's ASU usage in a pro game! VG won game 3 vs Liquid, and what a game that was! Granted, the ASU was given by Alch, but it was really impactful. I think that VG lineup that game wasn't the one that could really utilize that damage aura, but 2 rapiers worth of damage matter in Dota, no matter what hero has it.