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Unpicked heroes - Lion

Discussion in 'Meta-Game Discussion' started by LordLJenkins, Aug 10, 2017.

  1. invul_nerable

    invul_nerable Member

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    To be fair. Nisamraw does have a point. There is a reason why Lion is not getting any picks for a reason I dont even fully understand why. Lion almost kicks SS face aside from the pushing department. Is the pushing department of the hero really that important? I mean if you win a clash, that is a guaranteed 1 tower with SS around, but instagibbing an enemy means safer pushes right? Or maybe he is picked more because his ult pierces BKB due to physical damage.
     
  2. Nisamraw

    Nisamraw Member

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    260 damage, 12 sec CD. You can't take the GPM talent if you want to have more damage on Earth spike, as both are level 15. Again, I feel like talking to people that don't even know how much HP a creep wave has, and I don't want to sound condescending or anything by saying that. On top of that, it's not Lion's role to suck up farm on the map.

    Ultimately, Lion is a pos 5 that isn't supposed to take farm priority. So your remarks are like saying 'lol CM strong pos 5 ASU/BKB/Sheep/Dagger/Veil ez TF'

    Pushing is when you actually take buildings. But even as far as wave clearing is concerned, Earth Spike is just a miserable 260 damage aoe. Not nearly enough damage to clear a wave, and I'm not even talking about catas. Considering Lion as a pusher because he can use a spell into creeps makes just 0 sense. Just like you consider Lion being a rosh hero because he can hex/stun him... lol. Lion is not a pusher by any stretch of the imagination.

    Pick another hero that would still get MoC/Crest anyway. Problem solved. The item requirement on Lion just keeps getting longer and longer. Pos 5 expected to have MoC, Dagger, Force, Glimmer, Asu, and before the 20 min mark of course. Pretty realistic.

    Now, you wake up in reality where the meta is swarmed with heroes that survive Lion easily, that buys BKB/Linken on every cores, and that don't even mind him in lane. What is Lion going to do against a Timber, a Void, a Bristle, a NP, a NS, a Batrider, an ES, a Magnus, a NYX? Nothing. At best he's annoying with mana drain, but with PMS you can easily tank him. Earth Spike level 1 is 80 dmg, for 1.1 sec stun, one of the weakest stun level 1. It's useless. You may even end up feeding if you trade hits.

    And, ultimately, the hero is so mediocre that no one wants to pick him on a 24 million dollars tournament. It's not like Lion's mediocrity was up to debate or anything. It's a fact proven by a solid 0 pick on the best tournament with the best dota team available in the world. If they consider Lion trash tier material, he is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
    MrFrank likes this.
  3. ratalada

    ratalada Member

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    Just because you don't clear a wave with a single spell it doesn't mean you're not pushing a lane. pushing a lane it's about pushing the waves, the building aspect has nothing to do with the definition itself but it is a consequence of pushing, you're just stretching the definition to fit your point of view. You're saying lion can't push, he can. ss can't kill catapults fast either. and I'm not saying he's a rosh hero, you're saying he's useless against roshan, that's completely false, and with the right items he can actually help a lot with rosh. you're just being fucking stubborn.

    cores leave their lanes sooner or later, either because they're low on health, dead or they're ganking, jungling. at that moment it's legit to farm the free lane and get exp, or even clear some neutrals when nobody else is taking them if you have the breathing time for it.

    you must be a shitty support if you can't even afford a moc on a support hero if your team is planning to rosh. and who the fuck is saying to do it before min 20? you get the item variation most useful to your team atm, sometimes you can afford to rush dagger, sometimes you get small items while buying wards. you get what your team needs, if you have an initiator already you can afford to buy something else before dagger.

    hurr, bkb linkens, that shit fucks most disables, you're just grasping at straws. You can harass out off lane all of those heroes but timber and SS would fail to zone out a timber too anyways. you could get impale and hex by lvl 2 and zone the fuck out of most of those heroes and mana draining void is actually legit since backtrack is the only shit keeping him there. you're being retarded if you can't zone out a fucking melee with a ranged hero and a stun how the fuck do you end up trading hits with a melee hero if you're zoning him out? this feels more like incompetency from your part than the hero's fault.

    It feels like you think lion has some set items and order to get them, if you're going to zone out a melee hero, that's one perfect chance to go blightstone into moc. specially if your cores are right clickers who can make a lot of use of your disables and the -armor, help with roshan and also with pushing. or go wind lace to boost even more the speed advantage so he can't catch you and you get rid of the remote chance of trading hits at all, transition into tranquil boots and become self sustained in lane with mana drain.

    muh pros think it is so it must be. lol, i remember when pros thought skywrath was shit and didn't pick him, he remained unchanged for patches then it was picked and it got nerfed so fucking hard. Same with leshrac which wasn't changed at all but then got massively nerfed after it got abused by pros and plebbit didn't know how to counter so they cried about it till it got nerfed. So plz don't come here telling me pros know what they're doing, specially with all those stomps thanks to shitty drafting in the loser bracket.
     
  4. Dr_JP

    Dr_JP Member

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    Rastha is a nightmare to face against as offlaner, too much disable time with surprisingly good dmg.

    However, Rastha is a more a pick off/little teambattle hero, while Lion is quite more reliable at lategame, mainly 5 vs 5 battles.

    Same as Bane is OP if any battle is < 3 vs 3.

    They are similar but obviously not equal, I'd rather to have Lion as allied than Rastha, even though Rastha is harder as enemy (mainly because my main role is offlaner).
     
  5. effreit89

    effreit89 Member

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    oohh the adage "supports can't take farm form the map" is so not appilicable anymore.

    This is like those players that feeds every game with 0 items and is free of blame just because he wards and bought courier *facepalm* and scream "i am support! carries suck!"

    it's a 260 nuke that STUNS and effectively kills the ranged creep that does the most damage anyway. In effect, it's the same as a Shockwave.

    He might have the worst lvl1 stun in game but his Voodoo is a 2.5s disable at point 1 which is more than some lvl4 disables already.

    -Lion has one of the best Linken popper mind you.
    -Most spell oriented heroes are rendered useless by BKB
    -Like SS can deal with catas better *heh*
    -newsflash: you don't need to have "farm priority" to take farm, YOU ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE FARM OR ELSE YOU MIGHT AS WELL STAY IN FOUNTAIN WHAT IS THIS? 6.56?
     
  6. Nisamraw

    Nisamraw Member

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    You're being insincere and dishonest on purpose.

    By your own definition, all heroes are pushers because they can hit creep waves, or are rosh heroes because they can buy 'the right items', in which case SS can (and will) still buy the same items that Lion would have bought to do Rosh (Crest), and STILL BE BETTER OBVIOUSLY SINCE YOU HAVE MASS SERPENT WARDS. Even by YOUR definition, SS wardless would remain a stronger pusher because forked is 320 dmg, 8 sec CD.

    You're not making any logical sense, and are just playing on words to hide the fact that you've got no arguments. I'm done answering to you since you're using such disingenuous means. 'Spirit Breaker is a pusher because he can charge a creepwave and deal damage to them, so that's called pushing hehehe'. Sure, why not.

    And yeah, SS can't kill catapults either, never said otherwise, and? See, that's 100% proof of your insincerity. You're the one that thinks pushing is all about nuking creep waves, not me, but you fail by your own definition because you can't push cata with a weak Earth Spike, nor kill the entire wave. Oh but wait, SS has Mass Serpent Wards, and you use it, ideally, against towers/buildings. Does anyone consider SS a pusher because he can Forked the creep wave? Does anyone consider SS a rosh hero because he can hex him? Nope.
    While you, on the other hand, are far better than pros right? And what about the teams that didn't get stomped in LB and still didn't pick Lion? Oh wait... Now, I'm done talking to you since it's such a waste of time. You obviously don't want admitting you're wrong, even when confronted to factual reality and numbers. So keep living in your fantasy world where Lion is a decent pick, a pusher, a useful Rosh hero (because you buy the 'right items', that makes a lot of sense because you see, the 113 heroes of this game cannot buy the 'right items', they are only for Lion), idc anymore. Since basic logic doesn't apply for you, I'm just done.

    I thought this was 'balance debates' where you brought tangible proofs of what you're saying to make your point, not a 'I know better than pros, they don't know what they're doing' kinda thread. Well, don't waste your time posting on PD if you're that good at drafting. You should apply to TI8, and win it easily, since you're that good.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
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  7. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    I think you can't infer hero balance simply from pick-rates, but the fact that no team found any reason to pick Lion certainly suggests that he may be underpowered.

    Moreover, he has low winrates in pubs at all levels of play, so he doesn't seem to be good there either.

    Also, at his core he is not a particularly difficult or complex hero to play. All his spells are simple point and click, and there are no other heroes to micro - so it's not like Chen or Visage where the micro requirements cause low winrates in pubs but make them strong in competitive. Lion seems unchallenging and underpowered.

    Perhaps there's another way of playing him that people are missing- that's often what can make an underpowered hero become OP. If there is, might as well actually say it, and show some high level replays that actually demonstrate its viability.
     
  8. Nisamraw

    Nisamraw Member

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    No, no. What are you saying? You're actually making far too much sense. Lion is a god tier pick, but is really too hard to play and to comprehend as a whole hero. That's why he was not picked at TI. Pros are awful players, in awful teams to begin with, so that's normal. Afterall, who wants to win a 24 million $ tournament, right? Pocket money. Rather draft more awful heroes to lower your chances of winning. Ultimately, only one team can win TI, so the losers don't know their stuff (well, the winners never drafted Lion either, but they're bad as well hehehehe).

    Here's the right way to win a game: pick Lion pos 5, so you can have massive push power and can do Rosh QUICKLY. Farm ASU, Dagger, Force, Glimmer, Crest, and travel (on top of buying wards/sentries, smokes, dust etc. of course). It's easy really, you just need to spam Earth Spike into creep waves, and you can reach 500+ gpm while pushing massively (but that's a secret strat, that's why no pro does it hehehe).
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
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  9. ratalada

    ratalada Member

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    You're saying lion can't push, he can. and yeah all hero can be pushers if they can push the wave fast enough, some heroes are better at it than others. you're the one saying lion is useless against roshan, just because ss can do more it doesn't mean lion can't do shit. you're so fucking dishonest. where the fuck I'm saying lion is a better pusher than ss? you're saying lion can't push for shit, he can.

    god you're a moron, a pusher is a hero specialized in pushing, but that doesn't mean a nuke that has AOE AND CAN PUSH LANES can't be used as a pushing tool.

    you where the one that brought catapults to the conversation, fuck off lol.

    Your argument started from saying lion was useless against roshan and he can't push. then i tell you he can do both and tell you how. Then you say hurr SS is better because wards so he's the roshan hero when i never denied that.

    lol you're a joke. what facts? you're just juggling with definitions and talk as if lion's spells are just to be aimed at heroes and he's bad because pros don't pick it and you think his skillset is underwhelming. did you see how useless SS was on the grand finals?

    and what balance debates? you're the one who said 'oh pros don't pick so something must be wrong with him" maybe you should fuck off from PD instead if you can't bear answers you don't want to read.

    you're whole answering to me and others who tell you you're wrong is a massive strawman full of exageration. yeah, why bother talking to you, you just ignore all the points others bring that refute your bullshit on how to play a hero that you just trash and chances are you suck at it too since you can't even zone a fucking earthshaker with him.
     
  10. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Saying 'pushing tool' implies the hero is decent at it instead of below average. Clears faster than heroes without AOE, but that's about it.
    The definition of a pusher is generally accepted to be of a hero that is able to push effectively, which is the act of being able to kill towers.
    Just think of the stereotypical pushers- you think of Shadow Shaman, Death Prophet, DK, Lycan, Pugna, Brood, Leshrac. Heroes that can kill towers effectively. Lion is not one of these heroes! Even Keeper of the Light is not considered to be a pusher, as he can't do shit to towers. He can help sustain pushes with Aghs, but generally he's considered to be more of a counterpusher instead.
    Which Lion still isn't (because he's not good enough at it).

    You said before that Impale is a great pushing tool- it's fucking not even close. He doesn't clear waves fast enough. A 260 12 CD nuke takes him too long to clear. You can't kill the ranged creep at any point until the talent (by which it's too late) and you need to waste a lot of time rightclicking the creepwave, which takes too long.

    Also, Impale fails against the bigger creepwaves, being incapable of hitting every creep at once. Nisamraw's point is valid.

    Besides, Shadow Shaman's nuke is also AOE and does more damage with a lower CD, and Shadow Shaman hits really hard. His attack damage at level 1 is second only to Treant. This is massive, because the way to deal with damage block is to have more damage, as obvious as that sounds. The result is that while Lion can't touch an offlaner with a stout/PMS at level 1, Shadow Shaman can hit them pretty hard. And you can't start trading nonchalantly with him either because of Shackles.

    You are both misunderstanding what either of you are saying. He says that Lion is a bad pusher or lane shover (which is correct), and you say that he technically has an AOE nuke (which is correct). While he does have AOE, he still is bad at that role! Even if hex works on Rosh, that doesn't change anything in terms of securing Rosh (the idea is to kill him as fast as possible, as for your moc point, literally any hero can do that so again why draft lion).
    You're neglecting to see the context of his post while he's assuming you're not here to argue semantics.

    With Lion? Yup Lion can't zone an Earthshaker. ES has higher base regen then most heroes, is melee so he can get a stout, Impale sucks ass at level 1. 80 Damage level 1 nuke with a 1 second stun is just horrible.
     
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  11. invul_nerable

    invul_nerable Member

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    How bout with Aghs?

    But how about sucking all his mana? Rendering him useless(by not being able to cast spells)? Doesn't count?

    Anyway he had weak talents. It is weird why Nigma a hero that game breaking ultimate have CDR talent but heroes the likes lion doesn't. It is quite probable that he will have some kind of buff. Im just not sure how without breaking him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  12. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    With Aghs he's a pretty good counterpusher yeah, but that's mostly for core lion.

    No, because he can still sap exp safely enough. Once he's got a nice level advantage, he can refill his mana and kill anyone on the map.

    I personally also really don't like Mana drain and never bother skilling it and regret it when I do. Level one drain steals 20 mana per second, it's awful.
     
  13. invul_nerable

    invul_nerable Member

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    He does have +60 damage(for last hitting) and gpm talent to help supplement that need of gold. +75 cast range is kinda underwhelming anyway. Still, having Aghs as support is hard. But he could potentially last hit(ks) heroes for that kind of gold.

    It will delay his dagger for quite a long time though. But if you put it that way, you are right.
     
  14. adapt

    adapt Member

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    Sorry, ignore my post. I'm an idiot.
     
  15. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    While the +60 damage offsets his below average damage, Lion still is a support that can't instaclear waves and such. Gpm talents are also quite weak.

    Very much so. Especially considering how weak building an Aghs makes you; a support who's running around with a point booster is a free kill everytime, no questions asked. Lion also needs level 18 along with the Aghs to make it effective with the 20 second CD.

    My last point would be that in a scenario in which Lion has a lot of gold he should always get a blink dagger. Blink + Hex is one of the strongest initiation/ganking tools in the game, only countered by linkens.

    Eh, not really. Keep one point into Enchant totem and you'll get to cast it once in a while. Also as offlane shaker you don't need that much mana anyway.
     
  16. Abstract.Raze

    Abstract.Raze Member

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    Let us compare Shaman with Lion:

    Lion can stun many targets with his Q (Earth Spike)

    Shaman can disable only one target with his E (Shakles)

    -

    Lion poses a superior Hex with 4 seconds if maxed.

    Shaman only 3.5 if maxed.

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    Lion doesn't possess a naturalistic extended cast range

    Shaman does, through the talent tree.

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    Lion can provide free kills with his ulti.

    Shaman not.

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    Lion doesn't possess optimal push capabilities.

    Shaman does, through his Q (Ether Shock)

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    Lion can disrupt his opponents by stealing their mana apart from his disables.

    Shaman can burst his enemies with his Q nuke.

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    Both Shaman and Lion are squishy heroes with low HP values.

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    Shaman can rax towers and even Barracks with his ulti.

    Lion can't.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Conclusion on the matter is that, Lion is a superior nuker, he is likely to provide solid kills for the cores, is a superior disabler in perspective of successfully applying his disables, but for that Shaman poses a superior cast range potential, while Lion not, this adds its odds to successfully apply his capabilities despite being inferior to Lion's capabilities, however, in that perspective both are well matched, but Shaman's ulti puts him above Lion in the late game and mid game, Shaman has more variables suited to the late game, this means, he's a disabler and is a huge help in taking towers and finally Barracks while providing vision on high ground, while Lion is only a disabler with a huge Nuke capability, but in the late game it doesn't really impact much at the time of dealing against Pipe, Rubick's Null Field Aura, etc...

    Maybe Lion can provide a faster escalation but in the late game, he's somehow limited in comparison to Shaman.

    This is the reason why Shaman was preferred over Lion.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  17. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    You can trap opponents in Shaman's ult, which are also more effective in teamfights.

    Disagree on both fronts.
    Shaman does 320 (shock) + 360 (shackles when maxed; only 200 magic damage at level 7) = 680 (520) magic damage without counting his ultimate, while Lion does 260 + 600 = 860 magic damage.
    Shaman can do this every 10 seconds (shock has a lower CD so I'm going off shackles CD) while Lion can only do this.. once every 160 seconds. In this fast paced meta Lion is not a nuker anymore, but rather a hero with very very low damage output, while Shaman is a much more reliable damage dealer and single target disabler.

    Also, Shaman is better at securing kills for his cores as Lion tends to steal kills, while Shaman can hold opponents for an extremely long time in Shackles, which also do damage helping Shaman's damage output.

    I disagree. In fact, I find Lion to be very weak in the early game as well. Unlike Shaman, he doesn't have absurd base damage and the tools to threaten offlaners (Only hero with higher base damage than Shaman is Treant and he's not even in captain's mode, Shaman has a 2.75 second disable that does 120 magic damage at level 1 while Lion has below average damage and does 80 magic damage and stuns for 1.1 seconds at level 1..), nor are Lion's ganks that great.. He always needs someone with him to deal a lot of damage because his own is just so lackluster. A support needs to do things before level 6, and Lion also has one of the longer cooldowns in the game on his ultimate.

    Lion reaches level 6? Cool you can get one kill if you pull a nice gank off, but Shaman can get a tower with his team once he reaches 6, and can do so again 40 seconds before Lion gets his finger back.

    Mana drain is also a dogshit ability. You need to invest so much levels into it before it actually does anything, but then you realize that your skills aren't impactful enough without levels.
     
  18. Abstract.Raze

    Abstract.Raze Member

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    But for that Shaman remains inactive which makes him an easy target, he can only target one opponent, Lion can target more than one opponent, depending on its positioning angle cast while remaining flexible.

    That's a convenient view and not quite accurate, let me explain why it's the case.

    Counting Shaman's Shackles full damage is very convenient because its full damage success is relative since it can be disrupted, it's pretty much like this for your book, + 1-360 (Shackles when maxed)

    What makes Lion as a superior nuker, is that he's an executive nuker and doesn't rely on what could happen during the execution of his capabilities, once he cast them and he hit with them, it's done.

    That's pretty faulty since Shaman's optimal nuke damage and disable relies on its full success considering Shackles can be interrupted and that one can escape from his ulti, like from Clockwerk's Power Cogs, it's relative, while Lion is a more executive nuker and disabler.

    That's a pretty simplistic vague assumption on the subject, since it depends on the skill and a superior timing improvisation, Lion provides free kills in an executive perspective, while Shaman not.
     
  19. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    This is more of a teamfight statement. Shadow Shaman can hold down a solo target, say someone who is farming, for 8.5 seconds and have another shackle ready in two seconds.
    While Lion can stun multiple opponents, this doesn't make him a better nuker at all, which is the point I'm disagreeing with in your analysis. Heck, it doesn't make him a good ganker either; when you gank you want to kill them before reinforcements arrive, so you want to kill them fast.

    He's an executive nuker only once in 160 seconds. Otherwise he has one very supbar nuke; even discounting shackles entirely (despite the fact that you're still going to get like 72 damage from just 1 second channeling) Shaman does considerably more damage as Ether shock has a much lower cooldown (8 seconds vs 12) and much more damage (320 vs 280).
    To illustrate this point better, consider this: by the time Lion has cast his second spike, Shaman has cast 3 shocks. That's 960 magic damage vs 520. Earth Spike is just a horrible nuke.

    Even when Lion does get his ultimate off, Shadow Shaman can do more damage then Lion on a single target if he catches him alone, without his ultimate, as Shackles only has a 10 cd and lasts for 5 seconds (so yeah, they have 1.5 seconds to react after hex). While this is best case scenario, Lion's ultimate's cd is so long that I'd argue that him having his ult is already a best case scenario for Lion.
    It's just detrimental to draft Lion if you need a nuker, because you'll never have said nuking power when you need it.

    Again, more executive is nonsense when Shaman does more nuking damage than Lion unless Lion blows a super long cd for it, while still getting the same kill if he can safely shackle. And also, Shaman also has an ultimate of his own, also allowing him to get a free kill at level 6, but with a much lower cooldown. Also, his targets can't exactly escape while hexed- even one autoattack from each ward is 400 physical damage that is not reduced by damage block meaning level 1 hex is good enough for the job.

    Lion is a gimped hero without his ultimate, while Shaman far less so. You talk about an executive perspective again, but that is a meaningless, made up term. Shaman can just hold on to shackles and still do more damage than Lion in any given fight.
    And he always has the threat of being able to shackle someone, which unless interrupted, leads to guaranteed death.

    Lion is worthless without his ultimate in terms of damage output, meaning he's worthless in this meta. Spectre was also unpicked for the same reason- she also has a 180 second cd ultimate in a fast paced metagame.

    So yeah, you can invent terms like executive nuker, but really Lion is rarely a nuker at all. Shaman can just as easily hit people with his nuke as Lion can cast earth spike, but does significantly more damage and does it more often.
    Shackles is risky, but when you pull off a shackle it's just the freest kill. And getting a shackle off is not even that rare! Just like how getting a Fiend's Grip isn't that rare either (Bane was in fact picked this TI)

    If you ask me Shaman is the executive nuker here, as he's a nuker all the time, dangerous 24/7, and always has the threat of shackle which allows him to solokill, something Lion can't do.

    While not my main argument as the player in question got an octarine, I just found this on reddit:


    With just hex and shackles opponents only have a 1.5 second window to escape, else they are effectively locked down for 13.5 seconds. While taking all of that shackle damage.
     
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  20. BloodRampage-

    BloodRampage- Member

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    shaman definitely has a shitton of solo kill potential with that broken shackles talent... gotta love that he can even threaten farmed carries

    i think hes in an excellent spot because hes very versatile... he can farm/push, he can disable, he can nuke hardcore, he has anti-BKB (ult).... that qualifies as a perfectly designed support in my books

    dont touch shaman, buff other int supports (like lion) to his level

    veno, ES are also excellent and exemplify how supports should really work - they dont need any nerfs, just bring the other supports on par with them