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Urn of Soul (Support item)

Discussion in 'Item Ideas' started by MindTrickZ, Oct 12, 2017.

  1. MindTrickZ

    MindTrickZ Member

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    Sep 24, 2009
    Good day my dear friends. Today we gonna discuss new item that is possible upgrade to Urn of Shadows and Bottle.

    • URN OF SOULS

      [​IMG]

      RECIPE

      [​IMG] +[​IMG] +[​IMG] = 4725 (mb w/ recipe)
      or
      [​IMG] +[​IMG] +[​IMG]+[​IMG] = 3925 (mb w/ recipe)
      or
      [​IMG] +[​IMG] +[​IMG]+[​IMG] +[​IMG] = 5325 (1500)


      STATS
      Actives: Rune Release, Soul Release.
      Charges: up to 3 (3/1).
      Passives: Store Rune, Soul Rune.
      Bonus:
      • +2 Strength
      • +2 Agility
      • +2 Intelligence
      • +2 Armor
      • +10 Attack damage
      • + depending on recipe HP/MP increase.
      ABILITY
      Active : Rune Release

      Activates stored rune on Target Hero with positive bonuses on ally and negative on enemy. Available only with rune in it.
      ..
      note:
      1. Allies gain same effects as current Power-up runes do.
      2. Enemies gain reverse effects as current Power-up runes do.
      3. Ex. illusions from enemy belong to you, haste sets ms to min (100), DD halves damage, invisibility reveals (prevents invo), arcane increases cd and mc, regenaration degens -10HP and -6.7MP p/s (balance upcoming).
      4. Bounty Rune and Soul Rune are exceptions, activated on self w/ targeting as Doube tap.
      5. Activating the Power-up run grants 1 Soul Release charge, Soul Runes 3 and Bounty runes do not. Picking PU rune while having 1 charge, additively grants +1, so after activation u will have 2. No charge loss. Runes do not refresh charges.
      Active : Soul Release
      Multiple times Increases HP/MP regeneration when cast on ally and Decreases when cast on enemy over short period or until reaches the limit cap (threshold).

      Cast Range: 950
      Charges: 3
      Multiplier: 5
      Ally HP/MP Regen threshold: 600
      Enemy HP/MP Degen threshold: 600
      Duration: 4

      [​IMG] 1

      [​IMG] Can be cast on spell immune allies. Cannot be cast on spell immune enemies.
      [​IMG] Not blocked by Linkin
      Modifiers
      [​IMG] Item Urn Regen: Dispellable with any dispel.
      [​IMG] Item Urn Degen: Dispellable with any dispel.

      Note:
      1. Multiplies only heroes HP/MP regeneration numbers. Not flat healing.
      2. Effect is stopped beforehand of duration if reaches cap of MP or HP (which is first) regen/degen and waits threshold change.
      3. Checks the affected units' current health and sets +/- threshold. Same as Maledict.
      4. Do not gain charges from Fountains's Rejuvination Aura. Only by runes.
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Passive:
      Store Rune

      Runes can be stored in the Urn for later use, and are activated automatically after 2 minutes.
      Cast Range: 100
      Max Rune Store Duration: 120
      [​IMG] 0.5

      Notes
      1. the same with bottle.

      Passive: Soul Rune

      Creates a Soul Rune every time an enemy hero dies within radius. Enemy whose soul Runed or Urned cannot buyback until his soul is free, consumed or Holder (wielder) dies.

      Soul Rune duration: 5 seconds
      Creation Range: 900
      [​IMG] 0.5

      NOTES
      1. Rune cannot be picked without Urn of Souls and CAN be destroyed with regular attack.
      2. Rune disappears after duration and only after that Hero can buyback.
      3. Soul Rune store duration 55 seconds. For balance purpose.
      4. Soul Rune grants 3 charges of Soul Release if activated.
      5. Soul Rune released on death.
      6. Autoconsumes rune after captured enemy revived by penalty timing end.
      ___________________________________________________________________________

      Most of item mechanics are similar to those of Bottles's. Can be upgraded from shared Bottle.

      Ability to Activate Power-up runes on enemies can be removed. Waiting for your thoughts.
    • URN OF SOUL - 5775 gold

      [​IMG]

      RECIPE
      [​IMG] +[​IMG] +[​IMG]
      STATSAbilities: Active and Passive
      Charges: 0
      Bonus:
      • +2 Strength
      • +2 Agility
      • +2 Intelligence
      • +2 Armor
      • +10 Attack damage
      • +425 Health
      • +425 Mana
      • +12 Health regeneration
      • +2 Mana regeneration
      • +125% Mana regeneration
      ABILITYActive : Soul Release Multiple times Increases HP/MP regeneration when cast on ally and Decreases when cast on enemy over short period or until reaches the limit cap (threshold).
      Cast Range: 950
      Charges: 1
      Charge Gain Radius: 1400
      Multiplier: 5
      Ally Total HP/MP Regen: 600
      Enemy Total HP/MP Degen: 600
      Duration: 5

      [​IMG] 10

      [​IMG] Can be cast on spell immune allies. Cannot be cast on spell immune enemies.
      [​IMG] Not blocked by Linkin
      Modifiers
      [​IMG] Item Urn Regen: Dispellable with any dispel.
      [​IMG] Item Urn Degen: Dispellable with any dispel.
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Passive: Soul CaptureGains charge every time an enemy hero dies within radius. Enemy that charged Urn cannotbuybackuntil his soul is consumed or catcher dies.NOTES
      1. Can keep only 1 enemy soul (charge), starting with 0.
      2. Does not loss effect if damaged. Can only be dispelled.
      3. Soul charge released on death.
      4. Autoconsumes charge on self after captured enemy revived by penalty timing end.
      5. Multiplies only heroes HP/MP regeneration numbers. Not flat healing.
      6. Stacks with Urn of Shadow effects and doesnot prevent gaining charges too. Charge granted to both items.
      7. However only the closest Urn of Soul to the dying hero will gain a charge.
      8. Effect is stopped beforehand of duration if reaches cap of MP or HP (which is first) regen/degen.
      9. Cannot gain charges during cooldown.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Item is good alternative change to removal of buyback block by Reaper's Scythe. Additionally synergistic with regeneration talents.

    Thanks for your comments in advance. Another remarks and tweaks upcoming.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2017 at 10:42 AM
  2. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 New Member

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    Too weak?
    Thats simply x5 hp/mp regens with 600 cap or 600 hp/mp regen delayed.
     
  3. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    The active is rather weak, while the passive is strong af.
     
  4. MindTrickZ

    MindTrickZ Member

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    I think I should give some examples with numbers so that we could understand each other.
    ex.#1: item itself grants 12 hp regen while under effect it boosts up until 60 (12x5) hp/s. With 5 seconds duration totally 300 hp regen.

    ex.#2: Chemical Rage grants on 3rd level 100 hp/s, thus if ally u increase his regen up to 500hp p/s, if enemy degen 400 hp p/s (as 500-100 hp)

    I'm still considering more appropriate balance numbers between duration and limit cap. Because if 600 cap is low we still can increase duration so that delayed effect would be more effective.

    ex.#3: After reaching the cap if allied hero is damaged he will continue regenerating up to threshold and if enemy healed continue to lose health and mp.

    This time I hope it will be more clear for you on subject. What do you suggest guys, increase duration or threshold?
     
  5. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 New Member

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    Does it affect only hp regen or all hp gain (lifesteal, heals)?
    It doesnt use charges for active?
    It does need lower multiplier and base.
     
  6. MindTrickZ

    MindTrickZ Member

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    Active part affects only HP and MP regeneration. No lifesteal or insta-heals are affected.
    Gains charge after enemy's death in 1400 AoE. Consumes charge for active part.
    Big multiplier is a main part to differ from other healing sources. ex. Bloodstone. This item is good as counter to Bloodstone, as MKB does for Butterfly. But at the same time synergy well too. This is a supportive item, dont forget, and the most expensive in category.
     
  7. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 New Member

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    Why does it has such low cd, but hold only 1 charge?
     
  8. MindTrickZ

    MindTrickZ Member

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    In case you wanna change captured soul. During cooldown soul catcher is disabled. Still, If duration is changed I could increase it for balance side.

    I've additional idea making Passive Soul Catcher active too. Something like, you course enemy and if he dies during effect, soul is catched.
     
  9. flamegod0

    flamegod0 Member

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    I would say preventing BB is hella strong. But, the active is quite underwhelming in comparison. The thing is, I think the active is fine, however, the passive is OP.
    Remember necrophos old agh upgrade right. I would say no one would use that active even if support soul is in it, except when going to switch soul (in late game situation).
     
  10. Dzin-Zakk

    Dzin-Zakk Member

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    I don't think a support item should cost more than ~4'000 gold ever. Putting a Soul Booster in your recipe makes it overly expensive for it does - compare it to other items with SB in them: they have defining features abilities that make them usefull outside this +400 hp/mp.

    Also it makes your passive bonus stat a clusterfaq of 8 lines.

    • +2 All sats
    • +2 Armor
    • +10 Attack damage
    • +425 Health
    • +425 Mana
    • +12 Health regeneration
    • +2 Mana regeneration
    • +125% Mana regeneration

    Although I liked the idea of non-buyback however the urge to consume the single charge is too big.
     
  11. MindTrickZ

    MindTrickZ Member

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    Yeah I mentioned Necrophos in main thread, this is why Im suggestiong it. When something benefits only one teams it is strong but this is ITEM so both teams can purchase it. Still it is not cheap. There is many others thing you would like to buy. This item would be situational.
    And yes I agree with you and other guys from above, it looks OP. Maybe in couple of days I will add another variation mixed with active stealing Soul. As soon as I have more spare time, idea itself is ready.

    We already have Greaves that are 5375. Not mentioning situational refresh and Agh's scepter. Overly expensive? cmon dude it has strong abilities, Im even thinking of increasing cost. Soul booster there because its effects are similar to those items you stating. Type of Regenaration and fatness. additional reason that holder should be fat as his death releases Captured Hero.

    Im still thinking of recipe. In near future I will replace Perseverance with Bottle and maybe SoulB w\ 2 Point Boosters. Increase charges to 3 and other new stuff.

    Stay tuned. 2nd variation upcoming soon. thanks guys for you help.
     
    flamegod0 likes this.
  12. MindTrickZ

    MindTrickZ Member

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    Main Thread Changed. Added absolutely new mechanics and abilities. Soul Rune and Rune Release. Looking forward your comments. Tried to balance OPness of non-buyback.
     
  13. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 New Member

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    Rune collect + release = ultra good
    Soul release + Soul collect = still unbalanced combo.
     
  14. MindTrickZ

    MindTrickZ Member

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    May I ask you for more detailed comment. It would really help me.
    • What are pros and cons of Actives
    • What are pros and cons of Passives
    • which recipe you liked most, maybe can suggest own
    • Details of imbalance
    There are many new restrictions that didnt exist previously for non-buyback.
    1. 900 Range of presence for creation of Soul Rune
    2. Cannot be picked by anyone without holding Urn of Souls.
    3. SR can be picked by enemies. Thus they can benefit too.
    4. Can be destroyed with 1 hit of regular attack
    5. SR has only 5 seconds duration then disappears.
    6. If SR picker (holder) dies it is autoreleased.
    I think this things make item balanced and fun.

    @HHHNNNGGG @flamegod0 @Dzin-Zakk @dewouter what do you think guys? Did you check item's new updates?!
     
  15. dewouter

    dewouter Moderator Staff Member

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    Upgrading bottle seems imbalanced because of how powerful some of the runes are lategame. Even if you could store the rune on a heavy stat item it would be one of the best lategame items, and you are even improving them. I don't think bottle should have an upgrade and with that I have to t-down Rune Release.

    As for the items itself, it will be fighting against Bloodstone, Octarine, Skadi, Linkens, Scepter and possibly even Greaves and I don't really think this item outshines any of them in use. I like the idea behind Soul Release but I think it's too situational when it is, it is really too good. Think about poor Alchemist.

    I am assuming you turn their hp/mp regen into a negative number, effectively multiplying by -1 right?
     
  16. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 New Member

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    Firstly, about "new" additions:
    Its just a game in a game.

    #1-2
    I guess i and others already did some analysis.
    Theres a good reason why Necrolytes BB disable and Talents with reduced respawn time are no more.
    #3
    None, too expensive.

    I suggest you:
    1) to drop whole idea with bb disable, bb time and other related stuff.
    2) focus on runes.
    3) theend.jpg? I can help to balance the ready-made concepts, but why should I do someone else's work?
    Firstly, I'm now busy with the 2nd (3rd) concept.
    Secondly - Lets pretend i have some ideas for item that based on rune, few i'd say.
    And if you "touch" one of my concept ideas - Fine, i'll bring my suggestions like instantly, otherwise i'll make me own later.
     
  17. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    It's also a terrible support item. Only heroes like Necro and Dark seer buy greaves, or super rich supports like Bounty Hunter. Aghs is a greedy item that is often actually gamechanging, and refresher is a far fetched dream for any support. They either won't be able to purchase it at all, or won't have the resources to actually use it.

    The problem isn't exactly the cost versus effectiveness here, but rather that this item that is supposedly meant for a support will really only be purchased by cores or super greedy 4's with extra gold gain like Bounty Hunter.

    I personally think the item has too much clutter tacked onto it. The soul rune story doesn't inspire me that much- it looks more like a win-more item to me (which is, an item that is great when you're already winning the game hard).
    It tries to do too many things:

    - removing regen on enemies
    - removing bb
    - give allies strong runes
    - debuff enemies with anti-runes
    - heal allies

    It's a mess of many unique effects. Before I can suggest any changes, it's important to know what you're going for- I can easily see 10 different items being made with these effects.

    Lastly, if you merge bottle with urn, two extremely powerful early game transitioning items, whatever comes out needs to be more inefficient than this. Guardian Greaves for example doesn't give much more than Mex + Arcanes (just a bit strong aura when you're almost dead, and a dispel) but costs quite a lot more.
    So yeah, rather than increasing the cost, I'd make the effects less powerful- people will get this item regardless if it's good or not because Urn and Bottle are amazing.
     
  18. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 New Member

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    @Oesile
    - give allies strong runes
    ?
    You mean stronger versions of rune?
    If so, then its OP
    - debuff enemies with anti-runes
    Anti Illusion - dispel illussions and prevent illusion creating for X seconds. Sounds good.
    Anti Haste - purge? ms cap? Any other suggestions?
    Anti Damage - Reduced damage for some attacks? maybe?
    Anti Bounty - reduces incoming money? maybe?
    Anti Invis - Grants true sight over enemy. Sounds good.
     
  19. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    I meant normal runes, like haste and such. I used 'strong' because I consider their effects to be strong.
    I was also just listing what the item does, it's not a suggestion to allow the usage of stronger runes than say regular runes.

    Also, this anti-runes stuff is just too convoluted. Nothing about an RNG dependent mechanic that brings so many different effects to the table but is only used in one item really excites me. Like, why bother creating like 6 new effects if it's only relevant for 1 item. If your opponent gets a good anti-rune, say anti-illusion, are you going to enjoy being useless as an illusion hero just because someone found an illusion rune (which is like 1 out of 5 chances, IF you guess the right runespot to begin with).